Sorry for taking so long to sit down and respond to your thoughtful composition. I am very happy to read your words and especially the concept of God's omnipresence existing but to varying degrees. I recently had a discussion with a gnostic pseudo-christian who had maintained this manichean idea that there was an equal existence of evil counter-balancing God and also "spaces" where God could not exist devoid of existence, which my mind sees as an absurdity for obvious reasons.
I was pretty sure that this was not your position, but I very much appreciated how you clarified that.
From my standpoint, despite identifying very closely with Plato and St Augustine foremost of all philosophers, there are divergences that I have with either man. For Plato: I disagree on reincarnation, but everything else is pretty solid, while my views on sin diverge from Augustine's.
In some ways I find myself more in alignment with the early Christian church father Origen- also a Platonist, who didn't agree on the doctrine of original sin in the way that it was embraced by Augustine. The view I share with Origen is that we are born with a divine seed of goodness as our primary impulse, but being interwoven in the lower reality of mater and its finite, limited, bounded properties - we are forever cut off from absolute perfection, goodness etc which only our minds can access intellectually in parts but not all (ie: I can conceptualize the perfect square that cannot be made more perfect but I cannot construct the perfect square which could not be made more perfect). In that sense, nothing created in this domain of bounded finite reality (aka: Plato's realm of "becoming") cannot ever actualize fully in an untainted manner. Hence seductions, impulses that divert us from our proper path will also exist- but to varying degrees which can change immensely over time depending upon the degree of wisdom or folly our choices infuse into our identities.
The terms of wisdom or folly's infusion into our lives, I believe that to be based upon our capacity to exercise humility and our god given conscience tied to our god given powers of reason in order to recognize flaws in our hearts and thinking which results in time in a diminution of the hold of past wrong thoughts and wrong yearnings that remove us from the domain of the higher reality. In that sense "loves" that shouldn't be loved which once occupied me when I was younger (love for drugs, love for cigarettes, loveless sex, television, banal music) are now things which induce me to feel repulsion due to the presence of wisdom which I'd like to think of as the presence of God's love which is the effect of grace.
Other loves that shouldn't be loved like chocolate cake still have a hold and probably always will, but hopefully with lesser power over time. Inversely other not-loves that should be loved (like eating veggies, going to the gym, learning new languages, etc) I hope will grow since they currently are occuring via lower Kantian motives (aka: "musts" rather than willful desires) which is for the future me to hopefully enjoy.
That's about all I can say for the time being, but that's my thought on the essence of sin and God.
Thanks for your response. It is very thought provoking. Sorry for taking so long to reply.
Here is my question:
When you say:
ββ¦that we are born with a divine seed of goodness as our primary impulse, but being interwoven in the lower reality of mater and its finite, limited, bounded properties - we are forever cut off from absolute perfection, goodness etcβ¦β
you almost lead me to believe that you thought the the body was bad and the souls good. Is that what you are saying?
β¨I believe that since God created our body (he formed us βfrom the dust of the earthβ) and our soul, (he βbreathed the breath of life into us), they are both inherently good. I also believe that while when we die our soul and body separate they are both destined to be eternal, for how can someone be himself without both his body and his soul? Thomas Howard talks about this in Chance or the Dance; pointing out the difference between a person and his corpse:
ββ¦This shape is, in effect, he; but the shape is not itself because, ironically, it is only itself. That is, in order for it to be authentically itself (i.e., a body and not a corpse), it had to be animated and brimming and quickened with something that was more than itself.β
βChapter 3
The reasons behind our sinfulness are both internal and external; for one, we have the inclination of sin, inherited through our fallen nature, and second, we have Satan, the tempter, tempting us on to fall prey to our inclinations. We are saved from this through the Sacrifice of Christ, that is, the Cross.
You can see a beautiful example of salvation in Platoβs Symposium, where Diotima tell Socrates about the βLadder of Loveβ. If you remember, the lowest rung on the ladder of love is the βcontemplation of beautiful bodiesβ. The goal, as laid out, is the βcontemplation of Beauty Itselfβ, which you can believe is God, for God shares in nothing; all things rather share in Him.
In our salvation, what could be more fitting, a greater thing to do, than if God, Beauty Itself, were to come down that ladder, and make himself a body, in order to bring us up to the top?
This union of body and soul is inherent in us. The way our salvation is brought about (by God becoming Man) is beautiful in this sense: it lifts up our bodies (flawed through sin) and brings them higher than the angels, for βThe Word became Flesh, and dwelt among us.β
βO wonderful providence of Adamβs transgression, that by such a death sin might be done away! O blessed iniquity, for whose redemption such a price was paid by such a Saviour!β
Thanks for that very nice gestalt. I in no way wish to imply that the material state of existence is in any way evil. I merely was trying to express the domain of Being and Becomming as described by Plato in the sense of the Being being the higher state of existence where universals are found and shape as causal principles all yet are accessible to reason, though not manifestable within the material domain of boundedness of physical space time where change is a constant. The domain of Perfection is something which is akin to the City of God which is always something transcendental yet which guides the spirit of mankind towards self-perfectibility within a universe which is itself governed by self-perfectibility even before humanity appeared in a material form. When conceptualizing the life immortal, I'm not personally inclined to wrap it in sensualism since I think it will be something beyond anything the senses can visualize. So my idea in short: God and his creation is intrinsically good both higher and lower states of reality. Evil is the consequence of ignorance + pride + wrong judgements that lead to wrong action and defy Natural Law. The harm to our soul's health can be healed with knowledge + humility + right judgements leading to right action and repentance.
Sorry for taking so long to sit down and respond to your thoughtful composition. I am very happy to read your words and especially the concept of God's omnipresence existing but to varying degrees. I recently had a discussion with a gnostic pseudo-christian who had maintained this manichean idea that there was an equal existence of evil counter-balancing God and also "spaces" where God could not exist devoid of existence, which my mind sees as an absurdity for obvious reasons.
I was pretty sure that this was not your position, but I very much appreciated how you clarified that.
From my standpoint, despite identifying very closely with Plato and St Augustine foremost of all philosophers, there are divergences that I have with either man. For Plato: I disagree on reincarnation, but everything else is pretty solid, while my views on sin diverge from Augustine's.
In some ways I find myself more in alignment with the early Christian church father Origen- also a Platonist, who didn't agree on the doctrine of original sin in the way that it was embraced by Augustine. The view I share with Origen is that we are born with a divine seed of goodness as our primary impulse, but being interwoven in the lower reality of mater and its finite, limited, bounded properties - we are forever cut off from absolute perfection, goodness etc which only our minds can access intellectually in parts but not all (ie: I can conceptualize the perfect square that cannot be made more perfect but I cannot construct the perfect square which could not be made more perfect). In that sense, nothing created in this domain of bounded finite reality (aka: Plato's realm of "becoming") cannot ever actualize fully in an untainted manner. Hence seductions, impulses that divert us from our proper path will also exist- but to varying degrees which can change immensely over time depending upon the degree of wisdom or folly our choices infuse into our identities.
The terms of wisdom or folly's infusion into our lives, I believe that to be based upon our capacity to exercise humility and our god given conscience tied to our god given powers of reason in order to recognize flaws in our hearts and thinking which results in time in a diminution of the hold of past wrong thoughts and wrong yearnings that remove us from the domain of the higher reality. In that sense "loves" that shouldn't be loved which once occupied me when I was younger (love for drugs, love for cigarettes, loveless sex, television, banal music) are now things which induce me to feel repulsion due to the presence of wisdom which I'd like to think of as the presence of God's love which is the effect of grace.
Other loves that shouldn't be loved like chocolate cake still have a hold and probably always will, but hopefully with lesser power over time. Inversely other not-loves that should be loved (like eating veggies, going to the gym, learning new languages, etc) I hope will grow since they currently are occuring via lower Kantian motives (aka: "musts" rather than willful desires) which is for the future me to hopefully enjoy.
That's about all I can say for the time being, but that's my thought on the essence of sin and God.
Thanks for your response. It is very thought provoking. Sorry for taking so long to reply.
Here is my question:
When you say:
ββ¦that we are born with a divine seed of goodness as our primary impulse, but being interwoven in the lower reality of mater and its finite, limited, bounded properties - we are forever cut off from absolute perfection, goodness etcβ¦β
you almost lead me to believe that you thought the the body was bad and the souls good. Is that what you are saying?
β¨I believe that since God created our body (he formed us βfrom the dust of the earthβ) and our soul, (he βbreathed the breath of life into us), they are both inherently good. I also believe that while when we die our soul and body separate they are both destined to be eternal, for how can someone be himself without both his body and his soul? Thomas Howard talks about this in Chance or the Dance; pointing out the difference between a person and his corpse:
ββ¦This shape is, in effect, he; but the shape is not itself because, ironically, it is only itself. That is, in order for it to be authentically itself (i.e., a body and not a corpse), it had to be animated and brimming and quickened with something that was more than itself.β
βChapter 3
The reasons behind our sinfulness are both internal and external; for one, we have the inclination of sin, inherited through our fallen nature, and second, we have Satan, the tempter, tempting us on to fall prey to our inclinations. We are saved from this through the Sacrifice of Christ, that is, the Cross.
You can see a beautiful example of salvation in Platoβs Symposium, where Diotima tell Socrates about the βLadder of Loveβ. If you remember, the lowest rung on the ladder of love is the βcontemplation of beautiful bodiesβ. The goal, as laid out, is the βcontemplation of Beauty Itselfβ, which you can believe is God, for God shares in nothing; all things rather share in Him.
In our salvation, what could be more fitting, a greater thing to do, than if God, Beauty Itself, were to come down that ladder, and make himself a body, in order to bring us up to the top?
This union of body and soul is inherent in us. The way our salvation is brought about (by God becoming Man) is beautiful in this sense: it lifts up our bodies (flawed through sin) and brings them higher than the angels, for βThe Word became Flesh, and dwelt among us.β
βO wonderful providence of Adamβs transgression, that by such a death sin might be done away! O blessed iniquity, for whose redemption such a price was paid by such a Saviour!β
βThe Solemn Vigil of Easter
Thanks for that very nice gestalt. I in no way wish to imply that the material state of existence is in any way evil. I merely was trying to express the domain of Being and Becomming as described by Plato in the sense of the Being being the higher state of existence where universals are found and shape as causal principles all yet are accessible to reason, though not manifestable within the material domain of boundedness of physical space time where change is a constant. The domain of Perfection is something which is akin to the City of God which is always something transcendental yet which guides the spirit of mankind towards self-perfectibility within a universe which is itself governed by self-perfectibility even before humanity appeared in a material form. When conceptualizing the life immortal, I'm not personally inclined to wrap it in sensualism since I think it will be something beyond anything the senses can visualize. So my idea in short: God and his creation is intrinsically good both higher and lower states of reality. Evil is the consequence of ignorance + pride + wrong judgements that lead to wrong action and defy Natural Law. The harm to our soul's health can be healed with knowledge + humility + right judgements leading to right action and repentance.